Vance Spencer and Michael Anderson, co-founders of Framework Ventures, join Jason on today’s episode of “Empire.” The founders have grown Framework’s assets under management from $14 million to over $1.4 billion in just three years.

The co-founders share their thoughts on the layer-2 scaling thesis and why every project will eventually fork their own layer-2. Vance and Michael believe the shift to layer-2s is inevitable — it’s the endgame in maximizing token value.

They then dive into staking and staking derivatives and why the Ethereum merge will bring about the birth of a new industry. This might be the most alpha ever dropped in one podcast — don’t miss it!

Plus, hear more on:

  • leveraged bets on ETH
  • the demise of AMMs
  • enterprise blockchains
  • ETH 2.0 merge
  • And so much more!

Check out what they had to say in the video below.👇

About the show

“Empire” is a twice-a-week show where we share the real crypto stories that aren’t heard elsewhere. On Mondays, Jason and Santiago Santos interview crypto industry movers and shakers to talk about their struggles, bold moves and tough decisions. Finish off the week with Friday’s weekly roundup episode that covers the top news and narratives of the week.

For any NPR or Guy Raz fans out there, you can think of “Empire” as a “How I Built This” for the bitcoin and crypto industry.

Subscribe to “Empire” today on Apple or Spotify. Watch episodes on YouTube.


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  • Podcast Producer
    Garrett Harper is the producer for the Empire podcast. Garrett worked in private equity and product management before jumping into crypto full-time in 2021. His favorite thing about crypto? It conflates art, gaming, finance, software, and psychology into one hyper-growth industry.